My 1st Evo, but been playing since the arcades. My thoughts on the negative reaction to the Abigail reveal

Hi guys.

My tag is Apollo Ali — I’ve been playing FGs ever since I got SF2 for the Super Nintendo. I used to go to the arcade and get my ass whooped by MSP in MVC2 every day and I would torrent EVO grand finals and watch them over and over again. Unfortunately, I never really got into a local FGC community — none of my friends are into FGs — and instead became deeply involved in Project M, the mod for Super Smash Brothers Brawl, and I’m known as one of the best commentators in the game nowadays. However, I’ve been to MVC3 tournaments, 3rd Strike tournaments (pre SF4!), and have basically played and explored every single Capcom fighting game.

It’s funny, because watching you guys tear apart SFV and it’s characters reminds me so much of the community tearing apart SF3, which has now been canonized as an iconic entry in the franchise.

I come to this subreddit everyday because I love Street FIghter 5 and I want to learn about it. In my opinion, it’s my favorite SF yet — it’s modern, every character has become more distinguished in their look and design, and it’s by far the most intuitive SF game I’ve ever played. 3rd Strike is a better game, imo, but SFV is the more complete package. Does it have weaknesses? Sure — the input lag, poor PR, and clipping are definitely issues. But my main takeaway, especially from the Chun/Yun/Ken era of 3S, is — are all the characters usable and interesting? And for the most part, this seems true. SF4 may have been better, but I’m sorry — I’ve never liked that game. Focus was a weird system that made footsies into this extremely strange thing that was NOT rewarding or intuitive. Explaining focus to my friends was always difficult. What I love about SFV is throwing out a normal is a commitment. And that’s why it’s the first SF that any of my Smash friends have gotten into. They respect the footsies. They understand that it’s about spacing. And the combos are doable. These are all incredibly well-implemented design goals by Capcom. Perhaps at the top level it’s less interesting and I won’t get into those complaints — but that’s probably less than 1% of the playerbase.

Going to EVO was incredible and revitalized my love of the game. Tokido and Punk’s storyline was incredible to watch unfold live, amongst all those people. Also, when I saw Abigail, I got HYPE. His feel was something I’ve NEVER seen in SF before and my mind was racing about all the possibilities. But then I go on here and the negativity is so overwhelming that it knocked the wind out of me. I saw so many things that seem very myopic and bitter in a way that I don’t relate to. For instance…

* **On new DLC characters**

“We need old characters! The game is tanking and they want to release new characters!”

Okay, if you’ve followed old SF games, Capcom loves to delete all their old characters. This is why SF3 was so hated — because it only started with Ryu and Ken. But it introduced all those great characters you guys clamored to have back in S1 — Alex, Urien, Ibuki, etc. I think it was brave of Capcom to not ONLY change old characters like Bison and Ken, but to ALSO introduce a bunch of new characters. Everything is redesigned from the bottom up. It’s not easy doing that work but Capcom seems committed to it as a design goal., Heck, even GUILE is so different than he’s ever been.

The reason SF4 is my least favorite SF was because it was a nostalgia grab without any interesting ideas to innovate Street Fighter. The chars were mostly cut and pasted from SF2 and the new character designs were a mixed bag. Which leads me to point 2.

* **DLC character designs**

“Abigail is a freak! This doesn’t belong in Street fighter! I’m ashamed by Capcom.”

In my opinion, a good SF design does a few things — does it look like a World Warrior, from a fighting tradition? Does it look fun to play? Can you tell the characters story by looking at him? Ryu — he’s Japanese, he looks like a cool karate master, and his frayed sleeves tells you he doesn’t care about looks.

Urien, another character the community now loves, was DESPISED on first reveal. I was around then — Why do we have a guy in a THONG fighting? That’s not a Street Fighter! Why can’t we just get Guile/Blanka/whatever?

Of course, Urien references the great Greek wrestling tradition. You can tell he’s got some magic-thing going on with him in his intro. He’s ripped. He’s egotistical and wnats to show off his body.

I feel like most of the new SFV designs accomplish this way better than SFIV. Rufus , Viper and Hakan dont really answer any of my above questions — they don’t really look like any recognizable martial arts or fighting style (sorry, Hakan looks nothing like a Turkish oil wrestler), and I can’t understand for the life of me what they’re about on first look. I actually think Abigail accomplishes this well. He’s a freak of nature, in the old tradition of SF, a punk-y street brawler who uses his muscle to overwhelm you. A literal Street Fighter, distinguished from Hugo by being a brawler and also much less technical. His insane size ALSO makes him like Blanka or Dhalsim or Birdie or Urien or Necro. A big weirdo who’s terrifying. Plus, all the DLC characters have these little gameplay quirks that make them interesting — I’m looking forward to Abi’s hard punches and I’m sure someone is gonna do something interesting with him in tourney.

It may be good PR or whatever for them to release old characters, but new characters are good for the series. In ten years, you’ll probably all want Ed, Kolin, and Abigail in the next series.

* **PR, Esports, and the Sinking Ship**

“Capcom is fucking us over. Their PR is terrible and if only they released the right characters, the game would come back”

TBH, I don’t GAF about esports. I play an illegal game, lmao. BUT as a Project M player, I see how relentless negativity on a game can kill it. Melee and Smash 4 players relentlessly shit on PM and it’s hurt us. Yes, Capcom is fucking up its PR super duper hard. But that’s stuff only YOU guys will notice. Because you’ve been with Capcom forever and you’re on this subreddit every day, like me. Capcom needs to attract new players and it needs the communities help in doing so. I’m sorry, but Sagat is not going to bring hundreds of people to the game. People will come to the game through word of mouth. People aren’t going to GG right now because of Baiken. They’re going because everyone says its fucking awesome. As my cousin who never liked SF before SFV said about the community — “I’ve never seen a community so relentlessly destroy it’s own game as with SFV.”

Now, if you hate Capcom’s decisions and think the game is boring, that’s fine! But like, what does the relentless negativity really do? It can be so toxic in here that it’s almost unbearable. We can have multiple successful games — DBZ and Tekken and GG may hurt SF, but I believe that they can coexist peacefully. Also, often times criticism in here can be so black and white, when I think we should all just listen to Tokido — “FIghting games are great.” Let’s spread that. This may be a downswing for SF, but let’s not be so critical that we put the series into dormancy like with SF3.


Also, Capcom was pretty dormant during the SF3 years. We still made it work with love for the game. It wasn’t ideal, but at least we could all agree SF3 was a fun game, despite it’s very OBVIOUS balancing flaws. IDK how to accomplish that kinda consensus for SFV, but I wish EVO would do that for folks.”>View Source

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  1. EarthrealmsChampion

    July 19, 2017 at 9:43 am

    You lost me when you called SFV a complete package

  2. TotesMessenger

    July 19, 2017 at 9:43 am

    I’m a bot, *bleep*, *bloop*. Someone has linked to this thread from another place on reddit:

    – [/r/kappa] [* gagging noises *](

    [](#footer)*^(If you follow any of the above links, please respect the rules of reddit and don’t vote in the other threads.) ^([Info](/r/TotesMessenger) ^/ ^[Contact](/message/compose?to=/r/TotesMessenger))*


  3. vas6289

    July 19, 2017 at 9:43 am

    The game has a fucking shit rep because it had the potential to be great. It is the fact that it COULD have been special that fucks everyone off.

    Look at the menus, the loading screens, the loading animations, the time it takes to get a match, clippings, character models from A+ to fucking shit. Look at KEN, KEN.. a flagship character.. Look at the UI, the lack of options, the net code. Story mode requires you to download it, navigate through some more bullshit menus.

    The WORST bit is that Marvel is looking the same.

    It is just unbelievable at this point that they do not fan service like crazy just to get some rep back. They do not even DO THAT and give us character’s we do not want and look like shit.

    I know you want us to be positive but they are killing a great IP all on their own.

    In 2017 and you do not focus on presentation? your fucking doomed. I mean kids take pictures of their food ffs. You do not stand a chance if your game doesn’t look the part.

  4. ken_jammin

    July 19, 2017 at 9:43 am

    The biggest thing I’ll never understand is why would they simplify the combat to appeal to casuals yet have non of the features that casuals would want? It’s hard and frustrating to trust a company thats so consistently disorganized.

    If you don’t love your game dont expect your fans to either. Its true of every franchise and fans that fall in love with their favorite games can recognize when their creators do to.

    With 20% more time, effort, and money, the game could have been great, but instead its just okay. For every patch or new piece of content that is less than stellar fans are reminded of how little capcom cares. This is especially furstraing at time where every other fighting game has leaps and bounds more effort put into it.

  5. Funkalicious1

    July 19, 2017 at 9:43 am

    **Well said,** before the hatecrew will run rampant i will just tell you that i agree with you 100%
    As someone who is probably around the same age as you and have seen the same things in regards to the arcade and how people have rose tinted glasses now and don’t realize how much people hated on both SF3 and 4 when they came out.

  6. jus-do-it

    July 19, 2017 at 9:43 am

    Peace, man. This is not going to go over well, but I feel you. I don’t trip about the toxicity the community has toward this game because I do see it in the same position as the SFIII series and the internet is gonna internet. It’s safe to say a year and a half in that SFV is one of my favorite games ever and it keeps getting better. I’m fine with that being an unpopular opinion.

  7. Holup_I_Got_U

    July 19, 2017 at 9:43 am

    The major thing I dislike about this is the section on characters. Rufus was clearly a fat American kung th guy. C. Viper clearly was an agent with gadgets. Hakan clearly was an oil wrestler. Abigail is clearly a guy in a gang.

    You critique SF4 characters for things like fighting style while Abigail doesn’t have one.

    You say SF4 didn’t do anything to innovate the series but before SF4 did it ever have a character that played like Juri, Hakan, C.Viper, El Fuerte, or even Rufus? They definitely didn’t have a goofy character like Rufus.

    And that last part about community reception and perception. That is only the repercussions of Capcom’s actions for the last year. If they put out a game and characters that the masses don’t like, then that’s what will happen. It happens with their other franchises too. Lost planet and Resident Evil comes to mind.

  8. akdn91

    July 19, 2017 at 9:43 am

    The onus is not on us to keep SF alive. We are the consumer. It’s on Capcom to make a worthwhile product that we want to purchase. So what if SF goes dormant again? Your argument is crappy SF is better than no SF. I disagree. I rather see a reboot of a series ala MK after the horrendous run in the 00s post UMK3 than see SF turn into some fighting game version of COD or SW: Battlefront in which all that is left is shallow gameplay and overpriced DLC with no signature of what made the series great in the first place. No thank you, blow it up and rebuild all day, imo.

    On top of that, there are many other options for us to choose from made by other developers ie Bamco, NRS, ArcSys. These other companies, so far, have not been taking their fans for granted. Excusing Capcom’s gross negligence of consumer tastes and preferences and expecting brand loyalty in return reeks of poor judgement. We’re approaching another golden age of fighting games. There are better products out there now unlike in the 90s.

    You’re blending internet trolling/toxicity with rational consumer decision making as if they’re one in the same by tugging at heartstrings. I don’t agree with that assessment.

  9. Topqt

    July 19, 2017 at 9:43 am

    I agree with your post.

    I was like 7 years old when SF2 World Warrior showed up in the arcade at my local bowling alley.

    I used to pick Zangief cuz he was big and strong and just spam low FK and jump FK over and over.

    Fell in love with the game, would literally have my mom drop me off at the mall and spend all day at the arcade ripping nerds with my allowance.

    ST is my most fondly remembered iteration. It wasn’t too long ago that I was on ggpo with valle, afro, some of the japanese guys etc still playing it.

    SF4 is the worst imo, for the reasons you mentioned. Focus and FADC just didn’t feel like street fighter to me.

    I like SFV a lot. The fact that there is a ranking system and you can play online period is a bonus to me.

    I think that’s part of the disconnect between people from our generation compared to younger players.

    The old schoolers never had that shit to begin with so it’s not seen as a huge letdown.

    Cliche saying about millennials is that they’re the entitled generation, which I think plays into a lot of the complaining you see here.

    People just flat out complain more about everything, it’s not isolated to SFV.

  10. GruntMaster6k

    July 19, 2017 at 9:43 am

    Really feeling this post. What kills me normally is how much the SF5 hate spreads to OTHER fighting game sub-reddits and content. I’m tired of trying to learn about Tekken/GG/or viewing DBZ videos and hearing “YEA, CAPCOM SUCKS!”. I think that energy would be better poured into promoting the good things about that game than tearing down a brand you don’t enjoy.

  11. Snakengp007

    July 19, 2017 at 9:43 am

    Right now, I’m currently in the same position you are in, as I love fighting games, play PM daily, but I mostly sit on the sidelines practicing against others and don’t pay attention to most news on this game.

    While Abigail looks SUPER fun to me, I myself won’t be disappointed if other people hate him. I can’t deny that he looks a little rough, but the bowser main in me can’t help but love barreling trough attacks with super armor.

    On the topic of hating the game itself, I’ve only been an online warrior for most street fighter games. 3rd strike was where I started, learning and loving Alex and Dudley, while Oni hooked me to USF4, alongside the returning Dudley (I play much better in usf4 with him). But I have a question or 2 for ya:

    1. Why do you consider this game a full package, especially when looking at the previous titles. No real Arcade mode was a real downer for me, but I can look past it. No way this game is considered a complete package when usf4 was more content filled. The part about the nostalgia grab also feels off, since there were plenty of characters to choose from, old and new

    2. Why do I feel like you are minimizing the flaws, and trying really hard to get the positives across? If a game has undesirable flaws, and those flaws outweigh the positives, what is wrong with people not having a good outlook?

    Note that I really appreciate you coming here and talking about this, it’s nice to see opinions on this, in a civilized way, and I’m happy to be corrected if I was wrong about something.

  12. mc-fine

    July 19, 2017 at 9:43 am

    I’m loving the new characters. I play Laura, Kolin and Ed. Abigail is probably going to be a pass for me because I don’t like all the clipping/hitbox/hurtbox issues oversize characters create but I’m looking forward to Menat and Zeku.

    The relentless hate has been old and tired but there is no convincing these types to give it a rest. You just have to laugh at the guy with a vein popping out his head screaming at the internet for 1.5 years about a game he says he hates over and over on the game forums and the game streams he is watching. Telling people how he has uninstalled SFV and is playing GG/Tekken instead of chilling in the GG/Tekken forums.

  13. Mellowed

    July 19, 2017 at 9:43 am

    Agreed. While I don’t think your post is the end-all response to the endless negativity (it covers very specific aspects of it), it’s rather open-minded. SFV has plenty of issues that need to be worked on. A risky character design is far from priority as the game is now.

    I used to be excited to work with the FGC to promote good games, but I’m kind of guarded now that I’ve seen how strong its hate trains are.

  14. Soljah

    July 19, 2017 at 9:43 am

    stoped reading at “sf4 might have been better but I never liked that game

    SF4 is the reason you have sf5. it’s the reason there is a spark in fighting games in general. Sf4 IS the better game.

    PR is bad, leaks are bad.

    The character designs are amazing with the exception of abi. They should have made him non jumpable etc because now clipping etc will be 100x worse with that model. His hurtbox is going to look all kinds of fucked up.

    I enjoyed sf4 immensely. I like sf5 but it is super lackluster compared to sf4. Hopefully supersf5 will fair better.

  15. Shoki81

    July 19, 2017 at 9:43 am

    I don’t know man. I feel part of the charm of a fighting game is how cool or charismatic yr character is. That’s what SNK had. 80% of their characters are iconic looking and has a nice feel to it. Capcom on the other hand is doing the opposite. That’s how I feel at least. I mean I don’t mind the joke looking character every now and then like Rufus. But srsly capcom?? Even a character like Ed who is suppose to slim and fit like fri long body type gets jacked up cos that’s your ‘ideal’ male model. I feel Abigail intro beating Ed up was capcom’s way of saying : look guys Ed doesn’t look so big now eh???. And then you have tekken releasing Geese… omg such a bad ass even though he has one of the most ridiculous name in fg but damn he’s so awesome.

  16. IStillSurf

    July 19, 2017 at 9:43 am

    >It’s funny, because watching you guys tear apart SFV and it’s characters reminds me so much of the community tearing apart SF3, which has now been canonized as an iconic entry in the franchise.

    I had a strong reaction to Abigail (i’ve warmed up to him tho, lol) but the hate deffo reminded me of the _visceral_ reaction that 3 created, and for the non-waifu additions to 4 for that matter.

  17. Plankansson

    July 19, 2017 at 9:43 am

    To be honest, this subreddit is not THAT negative now a days! It was worse a few months back, but currently, all I read is praise for how hype EVO was, and if you look in the newest Abigail threads, they are actually really positive! Stuff is definitely getting better in here I think!

  18. Metalmorphosis1

    July 19, 2017 at 9:43 am

    I agree with every word you’ve said, this is the 1st time iv commented on this sub for awhile since i felt like noone liked the game so my comments would just be overshadowed with hate, just glad there’s others who enjoy the game.

  19. Zeebor

    July 19, 2017 at 9:43 am

    While I commend you for taking the time to make your points fully coherent and well thought out, there is one issue we casuals have with Street Fighter that Capcom simply can’t fix short of a complete mulligan: the variety and value. Casuals don’t see move-sets, techs, or frame data. We see faces on a character select screen and a fighter is only as good as that screen is large.

    The Smash community will argue day-and-night on calling the game “casual,” but it attracts so many of those people because of two things, 1) ease of use, but more importantly 2) the vastness of the characters to play as. (See also: reasons Marvel Infinite is getting trashed).

    Out of the box, casuals have 16 characters to mess around with, and 12 more they either have to a) pay an extra $40-$60 for (depending on if a sale is going on) or b) earn fight money to buy all of them in game, and you do that by winning online matches (ha ha ha, no) or slogging through daily challenges in Survival mode; and even then (as of post time) you have to wait for 3 of them to be released!

    While the game-play may be to a point casuals can understand it, the distribution model itself is what keeps us away.

  20. sicklesnickle

    July 19, 2017 at 9:43 am

    I just want good online play and I’m all in. I watch videos all day and try to learn new dudes then go online and it’s unplayable 30-50% of the time depending on what time of day it is. It sucks cause this is the first SF that i can actually put time into and yet the laggy matches ruin it. Even when i play my brother who lives 20 minutes away we get lag and we both have high speed internet and gaming PCs.

  21. GreyMASTA

    July 19, 2017 at 9:43 am

    If you feel like /r/streetfighter is toxic you should really be checking /r/kappa haha.

    Anyways, get ready to be called a shill, a capcuck, a retard with Stockholm syndrome, anything that hates on people that simply happened to enjoy that particular game.

  22. Lgr777

    July 19, 2017 at 9:43 am

    Street fighter is my favourite series ever, its brought me so many fun times and memories and made me have the burning desire to improve and get better which has really helped me through, when I criticise something, I do it because I love it, I want it to succed, to be the brightest version it can ever be, Im pretty harsh on people for the same reason, because I belive sometimes harsh love is the best favour you can do to someone.

    On another topic, Abigail has problems, obviously, but its worse problem (besides its model jesus) was its timing, it has come when the game is in turmoil, during the biggest event of the FGC, next to great games and reveals. Many people have said this but if we got abigail as the first character of s2, and now we got Akuma for example the wouldve blown it out of the watter, this reveal should’ve looked like [this](

    Nice post Apollo.

  23. Z3rul

    July 19, 2017 at 9:43 am

    “Fighting games are great” and that’s why i hate capcom. i want good fighting games and i want them to succed!

    i want the genre to rise to be popular to be huge, so more and more quality games could born. sfv is just a freaking incomplete game that just milks for money not fixing real problems while adding costumes and stages to rob people.

    capcom should be a example , they have a huge franchise and could lead the genre making amazing games, they instead rush games to get every money they can while it last.

    the only reason why fighting games and even capcom are still a thing is because the community is huge and love fighting games, being bad or good.

    just look at the crap capcom throws and people still buys it, that’s insane

  24. LouieKablouie

    July 19, 2017 at 9:43 am

    First off I’m a 16er. My history with street fighter starts with the snes sf2 turbo, the gba alpha 3 port, sfex 3 on ps2. Followed by a long break filled with melee, mk armageddon, and the one tekken 4 arcade cabinet at my local laudromat. I hadn’t touched street fighter for years until sf3 online edition was released. It was the first time I had a chamce to play street fighter against another real person. I got destroyed due to a combination of never really understanding core mechanics, and for my lack of practice…. And then I picked up Arcade Edition and then Sf5.

    I mention all those games because the only thing a scrub like me could enjoy is the single player content. Arcade/story/minigames/cpu/training all that good stuff. I can’t break down a fighting game and judge it from it’s mechanics because I don’t know what I’m talking about. I’m the guy who couldn’t pull off guiles ultra 1 input, and I never thought to combo into it. I used to walk back 2 seconds to do charge moves. Simply put I’m not at all fighting game savvy.

    Street Fighter 5 changed that. It introduced me to the fgc, this subreddit, and it improved in fighting games overall. I know what a qcf, tick throw, block string, and frame trap is now. I’ll credit that to sf5 introducing me to the bigger fighting game community. I can now appreciate the multiplayer side of fighters. However main priority is single player content which leads me to my second point.

    I feel fucked by street fighter 5. I already said I’m no fighting game expert so i won’t say what sf5 does right or wrong compared to other fighting games. As a consumer I am super disappointed that sf5 is heavier on multiplayer content than on single player content. Even playing online isn’t too fun what with the rollback and bad netcode. After I beat the main story and character stories I began to lose interest. Nowadays I just do a quick set, level up a character or one of the weekly missions for FM.

    There’s very little for the common consumer like me to do with this game. It’s unfortunate too because the announcement of monthly characters was so exciting I ended up buying them on release. When season 2 rolled out I was even more excited that I bought the season pass…. sigh. Now these new characters are coming out inconsistently and alongside more content that cost real money. Fight Money feels non existant in this game, it’s my only motivation to play multiplayer and I don’t think we get quite enough.

    Finally when Abigail was announced, I wasn’t disappointed because I hate the character. I think he’s a fantastic addition to the cast. However when your competitors decide to 1)introduce a character from another franchise into their roster 2)reveal a crossover fighting game with 2 ips that aren’t huge draws 3)a 2d fighter in a series that has been traditionally 3d. It’s a tough act to follow epsicially when your game is the competitive centerpiece. Capcom assumed that their character reveals are bigger than all that
    Decided Abigail and more pricey content was their trump card. It’s unfortunate when capcoms competitors are quickly gaining speed with amazing reveals and original ideas. At this point I find Capcom confusing more than irritating.

    I’m not obligated to buy their content sure, but I don’t believe a lot of the critique isn’t based in truth. Capcoms treatment of sf5 has made me hesitant to buy mvci until I read trusted reviews or if I play the final version myself. Until then I bought sf5 on release along with the season pass and no one likes to throw away money.

  25. InvasiveSpecies207

    July 19, 2017 at 9:43 am

    [My face every time someone says “this character is too wacky give us back the old cast”](

  26. gustavogoose

    July 19, 2017 at 9:43 am

    >But it introduced all those great characters you guys clamored to have back in S1 — Alex, Urien, Ibuki, etc.

    You conveniently left out the fact that Alex and Ibuki look incredibly ugly compared to their other iterations and that Urien, while true to form, plays like a braindead monkey. One of the most technical characters in Third Strike became Crush Counter > Launcher.

    >The reason SF4 is my least favorite SF was because it was a nostalgia grab without any interesting ideas to innovate Street Fighter.

    Believe it or not, not everyone wants innovation. You can only innovate up to a certain point before it stops being what you liked in the first place. It works out in SFV for the most part, Bison, Chun, and Guile are much more interesting in SFV but some characters got the shit end of the stick. Ibuki and Balrog got terribly simplified and Juri got completely fucked hard. I think Juri represents everything wrong with SFV; they took an amazing character in both gameplay and theme and they couldn’t allow players to have any fun, so they gutted her until she was generic in typical SFV fashion. Why did they take away Ryu’s footsie tools and make Guile an objectively better Ryu? Why did they take away Gief’s movement options in favor of a simplified tank? Why does Akuma’s demon flip go a fourth of the distance it did in IV and why are his mixups just based on every attack being plus on block?

    >In my opinion, a good SF design does a few things — does it look like a World Warrior, from a fighting tradition? Does it look fun to play? Can you tell the characters story by looking at him?

    To most people none of these things apply to Abigail. His story seems to be that he is a bumbling retard and that isn’t an interesting character. Hugo is cool because he is a massive hulking beast of a fighter and he seems mentally slow, but he is calm and collected and fights when he is supposed to fight. Abigail literally rides into battle on a pretend car and wears tires everywhere on his body (including tire rings on his fingers). It is ridiculous in all the wrong ways.

    >It may be good PR or whatever for them to release old characters, but new characters are good for the series. In ten years, you’ll probably all want Ed, Kolin, and Abigail in the next series.

    I never hear people wanting Rufus, Hakan, Twelve, or Remy. I really doubt people will want Ed or Abigail either. Kolin is a very interesting character and I could see people wanting her back but I also don’t think people would care much if she wasn’t.
    Your argument about Viper, Rufus, and Hakan are really misguided. Viper is as cool as she looks, she is a spy and she uses cool spy gadgets, nothing more needs to be said about the character, people love her design and want her back. Meanwhile nobody is clammoring for Rufus or Hakan and yet both of them are more interesting than Abigail. Hakan is using an actual fighting style that is unique in both theme and mechanically, Abigail looks like another Birdie so far and that is very underwhelming. Rufus is ridiculous and imo way over the top but he was still a fun and interesting character, that is why he was a common character to begin with. You could pick him up once and have fun immediately.

  27. CaptainNeuro

    July 19, 2017 at 9:43 am

    >Now, if you hate Capcom’s decisions and think the game is boring, that’s fine! But like, what does the relentless negativity really do?

    What does accepting a shit sandwich and saying ‘please sir can I have another?’ do other than get you another shit sandwich? This is how this works. You don’t accept a bad product if you want a good product to follow it.

    >Also, Capcom was pretty dormant during the SF3 years. We still made it work with love for the game.

    That’s because SF3 was lovable. For all its oddities, it had a charm to it that made it incredibly fun to play.
    SFV shows Capcom have what can only be described as contempt for their core supporters.

  28. Necronn

    July 19, 2017 at 9:43 am

    I don’t think anyone complaining about this game does not want it to be the a good game tbh. Most of us grew up knowing the street fighter franchise and its characters. I want street fighter to succeed but capcom has been making some questionable choices as of late. SFV was released very bare bones and no one can deny that, it’s somewhat better now but these things should have been in from the start. Some of the animations looks janky. The graphics aren’t exactly great.

    Of course people get upset when they see a beloved franchise run into the ground. Look at the latest mass effect and how much flak that got.

    I don’t get why people keep buying their half finished games. I love the street fighter franchise but they really have dropped the ball as of late. I kind of want capcom to fail to make them realize that shoveling out half-assed games aren’t okay. But at the same time I love their franchises and want them to make more games, better games.

    There’s nothing wrong with capcom trying to make new characters. Of course people want old characters they know and love. I have no issues with them releasing new characters instead of old ones. But Abigail doesn’t hold the standard of you ask me. His animations are wonky and his design is off putting for me at least. And since capcom is such a big name nowadays you expect more from them.

    About the whole PR thing. People expect developer to communicate with their players nowadays, every now and then. To make sure they they listen to what we want. So of course people are going to voice their opinions. Yes capcom was dormant during everyones beloved third strike. But it was another time. Where people didn’t really expect any communications from the developers of the game.

    Yes! Fighting games are great. But people also have to be able to voice their concerns. If people think that this game could be a lot better of course it’s going to get a lot of flak. Just because it’s a fighting game doesn’t mean that you should just accept whatever they throw out..

  29. Cracknut01

    July 19, 2017 at 9:43 am

    I’m almost stopped going into this sub Reddit, even in threads with tech there is negativity in comments. Fuck community then, I’m just enjoying the game and CPT without reading any comments and twitch chat.

  30. gleaped

    July 19, 2017 at 9:43 am

    I’ve played every Sf since 2 (often very very poorly) so far SF5 is by far the most fun.

    I do wish they would pin down some of the other stuff like netcode, or that weird slow motion bug on windows 10 but I’ve had literally hundreds of hours of fun playing.

  31. XDVI

    July 19, 2017 at 9:43 am

    Oh look, another thread complaining about bad the sfv community is.

    Ok back to smash with you.

  32. COREY_2293

    July 19, 2017 at 9:43 am

    Its less about the community wanting to destroy itself and more like other FGC communities wanting to destroy Street Fighter. People clearly like the game. It has improvements to be made for sure. Its far from perfect.

    Capcom really should have had a half and half for new and returning characters. Thats just the way it should have been. People would have been so much more open to that and thats a mistake capcom wont make again hopefully.

    I remember the build up to SFV release, people demanded new characters but when they got it like season 2 they really hate it. Its funny how that works out. I was fine with new characters for season 2 but i would have preferred the old characters return, who wouldnt? I really want Cody back.

    Capcom as a developer are really bad, their communication is all over the place. I feel like they should have announced Super Street Fighter V if that is in development because its what people want. Geese for example was announced for T7 and he is MONTHS away, might not even be here until 2018 but people dont care, they just care that they are getting what they wanted.

    Please the majority. That should be their goal after the disappointing sales of SFV in the first year. Even a SSFV logo and a sound bite of Sagat at the end of Abigail trailer. People would have been so hype.

  33. The_NZA

    July 19, 2017 at 9:43 am

    I think a lot of what’s great about SFV goes totally unnoticed. As you said, the appearances and character designs say so much of hte character’s backstories, their fighting styles, and they “flow” in a way where SF4 was stiff (and highly criticized). My fave character is Laura and she looks like a capoira fighter with a back story.

    Also yeah, i’m a new player, SFV is the first one I got into, and I partially stopped playing because of the constant negativity.

  34. 879846561899861

    July 19, 2017 at 9:43 am

    I watched SFV at both last year’s evo and this year’s one, and as a new viewer to street fighter, after looking up the characters I noticed that almost all of my favourite characters in SFV are completely new characters to this game. I understand why we need old characters too, but I personally really like the new characters.

  35. massivedam

    July 19, 2017 at 9:43 am

    I will never understand why it would behoove a person to put so much effort into defending a fucking multimillion dollar corporation.

  36. Noxyam

    July 19, 2017 at 9:43 am

    Not answering to the whole message, but a few bits.

    I do think the copetitive scene for SFV got a huge potential, Tokido vs Punk be the proof, but I can’t overlook worrying issues because of hype.

    I don’t like to hate blindly on things but clearly Abigail has something wrong, people are crying about character design, but that’s wrong, his chara design can be fine we had ugly chara before.
    Abigail’s problem is incompetence from whoever worked on it. It’s clear from the animation, to the overall basic costume.

    The fact that most design issues are really well covered up in the battle/story costumes is already strange enough. Because a lot of errors on Abigail’s default costume are amateur details. Like the neck muscle, they look like it’s his shoulders which the brain automaticaly analyses but then the eye goes further and, oh wait this isn’t the shoulders it’s a neck.
    This kind of problem don’t happen in the other costumes because the tires are hiding those details and the brain does the work alone replacing things in a good manner.

    Other big detail, his super is messed up, no not the invisible ceiling, this is a hilarious artistic choice. The problem is the transition between the attack and the cinematic. One hand vertical slap => Two hand waist grab, in a single frame. This kind of error never happened on any other characters, and it’s also pretty easy to get around. Just show the victim bouncing on the floor and have Abobo grab him in the air. There, it should be like 20 frames tops of animation.

    And this for me is a sign of hope. Yeah I know I just shat on a character for a few paragraphs, but I’m a hopeful man.

    Think about it : Abigail is trash on a technical(3D) level, unlike any other character from SFV. MvC:I is complete trash on half the models…

    I don’t know about you but it almost seems like Capcom’s main “artistic focus” is neither MvC:I (game is out in two month, half complaints are disregarded), nor SFV DLC chars.

    I know I might look really stupid but I just can’t get around the fact Capcom is sooo incompetent, I swear they HAVE to be working on something else. Please guys. Those guys did so many great game, I want to love them but they have to earn our trust again. The community “deserve” something great. And Capcom didn’t deliver yet.

    On the other hand Namco/Arc sys are blasting all…

  37. Flygplanet

    July 19, 2017 at 9:43 am

    While I agree that there are plenty of valid criticisms of the state of SFV the level of toxicity often goes way beyond what is warranted.

    I might be a bit conspirational but it feels like a lot of people only returning for Evo or even from other communities only here for evo (like the shitshow that is r/kappa) were trashing e.g Abigail. Notice how the initial knee-jerk criticism has faded.

  38. EMP_Account_Siphon

    July 19, 2017 at 9:43 am

    I respect your attempt to push back on negativity — there’s probably too much around here in general — but a couple of the specific things you said are just not good arguments. You’ve attributed arguments to all the “haters” as if it was one person.

    * “You can’t hate on new characters when you like the new characters from SF3”
    * “You can’t say Abigail is weird because there were other weird characters”

    These rely on assumptions about how I felt about things in the past. What if I don’t like Abigail’s visual design and *also* don’t like the other weird characters? This type of “argument from inconsistency” is very easy to make, but it doesn’t work because individual people can complain about things and still be consistent with their own earlier opinions.

    Let’s focus on one of the other things you said, with new players being discouraged by negativity. That’s an actual good argument for people to not be so overtly harsh.

  39. StephenColbert46

    July 19, 2017 at 9:43 am

    > People aren’t going to GG right now because of Baiken. They’re going because everyone says its fucking awesome. As my cousin who never liked SF before SFV said about the community — “I’ve never seen a community so relentlessly destroy it’s own game as with SFV.”

    I just want to respond to this point specifically, not going to touch anything else. I 1000% agree. This is why I stopped playing SFV.

    Yes, the game as a piece of software is horrible to use. Yes, the visual style is not the best. Yes, the gameplay tends to revolve around 50/50 situations and aggression. But the number 1 reason I stopped playing the game was the constant, overwhelming negativity.

    Not too long ago, Extra Credits did an episode on what they called “[Lifestyle Games](” of which SF (and fighting games in general) most certainly are. And I just couldn’t stand the lifestyle of SFV. Every discussion about the game turning into a heated internet fight over whether the game did or didn’t suck. Feeling *guilty* for playing the game because of how much everyone said it sucked. Feeling sad while watching tournies because the players all say they hate the game and are only doing it for the money. It was just too much for me.

    Like a lot of people, I’ve been playing Guilty Gear lately. It’s a great game, with a super interesting look, unique characters, and engaging gameplay. Even then, not a single second goes by while I play that game where I don’t think “I would so much rather be playing an SF game right now”.

    But I don’t. Because the Guilty Gear “lifestyle” is less draining, less poisonous for the rest of my life.

    Am I blaming the community? No, honestly I blame Capcom more than anyone because I think their terrible PR has made things worse than they have to be. It’s just that this is what I think is the biggest reason for SFV’s “failure”, not the gameplay, not the aesthetic, not the netcode. The lifestyle.

  40. syph0

    July 19, 2017 at 9:43 am

    I really enjoy SFV. I play it a few hours in the week and spend most of a weekend day with my brother who also really enjoys it. Played something like 6k fights. We can’t get on with other fighting games (I play ARMS, great fun but not seriously and Smash 4 for fun) and despite playing 2 and 3 and 4, never got into them like 5.

    The only thing that really frustrates me is the price of the DLC. Coupled with the high price in FM of basic stuff like colours and lack of content initially it feels expensive for what it is.

    The actual game, balance, characters etc I really feel are solid. I get people don’t like the CC mechanic, they go on about pros only playing for money, I just don’t see that when they play. I also think it sounds really disrespectful to players like Du and Punk (neither I particularly like, like I do Tokido or Infil) who are clearly very skilled and play the game far from flow chart and braindead.

  41. SavingPrincess1

    July 19, 2017 at 9:43 am

    I want your level of free time <3

  42. BlueFreedom420

    July 19, 2017 at 9:43 am

    Reminds you of the community tearing apart SF3? Please.
    Abigail looks like pure shit. This is nothing like SF3. SF3 had the gameplay to back it up. I watched the EVO grandfinals where it was constant cr mp cr mk.

  43. imported

    July 19, 2017 at 9:43 am

    is evo worth going to if you’re not gonna be entering any tournaments? i may have block of some vacation time next year.

  44. YolandiVissarsBF

    July 19, 2017 at 9:43 am

    Thank you!

  45. samoangerman

    July 19, 2017 at 9:43 am

    project m bois leaking into other subs

  46. Atrudedota

    July 19, 2017 at 9:43 am

    I get what you are saying. I have this friend ive been playing sfV with on the free weekends. Been trying to convince him to get a copy (especially when its on sale) but hes holding back on it even tough he enjoys it.

    Out of the many reasons why hes approaching it with reserve, he plays other games and he knows how much time he has for games, one of the must be the opinions circulating around.

    On the other hand, you cannot expect people to self-censor themselves, to stay positive, or even straight up lie about stuff they believe is true.

    This is the true 50/50 of SFV – reconciling those two stances.

    Post like yours are very helpful though. I think you give a well thought out perspective on things and I cant hate a guy who goes against what hate a guy who goes against whats acceptable – even when that something acceptable is ‘shitting on sfv’.

    Thank you for your post.

  47. smalltimehustler

    July 19, 2017 at 9:43 am

    Well said. There’s something about software that just inspires insane toxicity, often around great stuff. If there’s any application, game or operating system that has thousands of happy users, there’s always a little cult of a few hundred people who will have problems (some legitimate, some invented) and/or are insane with a few feature requests that they believe they are entitled to. They won’t just drop the subject and move on with their life. It’s like the software company betrayed them.

  48. SebaZonGW2

    July 19, 2017 at 9:43 am

    I wish people would understand that nothing good will come of hating a game. And I wish they would understand that that kind of bitter and toxic mindset won’t help them either.

    Listen, if you love the game but you hate the state it is in, why not do your best to help to try and improve it? Wouldn’t that be more rewarding than being a dick and revel in other people’s pain?

    Or how about finding another game that you actually enjoy? It’s fine to let something go, you know. You would do it at some point anyway, so why not cut your pain short and do it now? Go find something that is so good that you can be positive about it. The sooner you do it, the better it will be for you.

  49. Hype_Magnet

    July 19, 2017 at 9:43 am

    Only a smash player would be crazy enough to post something like this lol

  50. neecoan

    July 19, 2017 at 9:43 am

    I totally agree

  51. Fantasie-Sign

    July 19, 2017 at 9:43 am

    SFIII no one cared about until the moment 37. Do you think SFV will have something like that?

  52. smokecutter

    July 19, 2017 at 9:43 am

    Oh yeah, a lot of people are just looking for things to be upset about and it’s very easy to dissect and find things that you don’t like in new strange things, imagine if Guile was announced in 2017 as DLC for the first time… “what a stupid haircut”, “two american flags tattoos??”, “guy wearing a tanktop and camouflage pants so uninspired”, “only two special attacks?”, “wtf no eyebrows”…

    That being said, I don’t think this is the best moment to make bold decisions like that, Capcom should be focused in doing as much fan service as they can.
    I personally like that they make new characters but I also want some old favorites back and re imagined in SFV, I guess what I’m trying to say as stupid and simple as it sounds why not do one each for the entirety of the year?

  53. HeisenbergX

    July 19, 2017 at 9:43 am

    Well said OP. You said a lot of things there that I’ve been thinking for a long time. I fucking love SFV (and I have since I first picked it up), and it is tiring as hell to see all these people whining about nothing. I try nowadays to just pay attention to the content I’m interested in and ignore the whiny bullshit. It works most of the time at least…

  54. gablekevin

    July 19, 2017 at 9:43 am

    Thank you for this. Reading so much negativity every day can get very old whether it’s true or not.

  55. resident_hater

    July 19, 2017 at 9:43 am

    If you don’t like the original characters that built this game and that made it so popular, go play another game.

    It’s like going to your favorite restaurant and all of a sudden the menu is changed. Hey dipshits, why do you think I keep coming to this restaruant? Because I like the silverware?

  56. Deonbekende2

    July 19, 2017 at 9:43 am

    * New GG character : You want to play it
    * New BlazB character : you want to play it
    * New Tekken character : you want to play it

    * New SF5 character : you want to puke

  57. metatime09

    July 19, 2017 at 9:43 am

    Thank you thank you thank you! A lot of players here mainly know SF4 history and not SF3 history.

    > Focus was a weird system that made footsies into this extremely strange thing that was NOT rewarding or intuitive.

    Urgh I could never pinpoint why I never liked FA besides being rooted for so long but this is definitely part of the reason.

  58. BlazingAngel

    July 19, 2017 at 9:43 am

    sigh stop trying to reason with the internet mobs. This Evo does this game more justice than any capcom’s “PR”, which btw is next to non existent.

  59. DirtTits

    July 19, 2017 at 9:43 am

    People complaining about characters before they even play them comes off as such a spoiled brat internet generation attitude to me.

    When I blindly bought Alpha and especially EX series games years ago, they had plenty of wacky characters in them. I didn’t complain, I played and enjoyed them for what they were.

  60. NO3SCAPE

    July 19, 2017 at 9:43 am

    Lmao if smash kids like sfv then something is wrong with it kappa

  61. MiddleFingaMarc

    July 19, 2017 at 9:43 am

    Well said and i agree. And don’t the negativity ok here get you. Try your best to scroll and only engage in the fruitul posts when they come around.

  62. KasuganoTsubaki

    July 19, 2017 at 9:43 am

    Im pretty sure most of the negative reaction to Abigail’s reveal is due to people thinking the “Big reveal” was going to be SSFV

  63. Anonymous

    July 19, 2017 at 9:43 am

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